Ultimate Guide to CineEI on the PXW-FS7 (Updated May 2016).
INTRODUCTION:
This guide to Cine-EI is based on my own experience with the Sony PXW-FS7. There are other methods of using LUT’s and CineEI. The method I describe below, to the best of my knowledge, follows standard industry practice for working with a camera that uses EI gain and LUT’s.
If you find the guide useful, please consider buying me a beer or a coffee. It took quite a while to prepare this guide and writing can be thirsty work.
Thank you very much for this excellent article Alister!
Do you shoot Cine EI for all work? For example, if you were doing run and gun shooting, moving indoors (with only available light) to outdoors- would you shoot in a Custom profile to allow for proper exposure in the viewfinder or continue to shoot in Cine EI and then push the “negative” in post? (And I’m referring only to the XQD recordings not RAW)
Mr. Chapman,
What a terrific article! Anyone buying an FS7 would be well served reading it. Thank you for your efforts.
Bob
Great article thanks. Just for my clarification, you can set correct exposure levels for S-Log3 EITHER with grey or white levels, right? OR, you can set exposure levels using an 709 LUT at proper white or grey levels. Any of the above options work, right? You don’t need to check both?
Thanks
Yes any of the above.
Wow, thanks for this guide. really informative and helpful.
We are making the switch from DSLR’s to big boy cameras with the FS7. I am super excited and intimidated, and this guide helped a ton in understanding the science behind it all (even if it mostly went over my head).
Thanks again!
Thanks for this Alister, very helpful and much work on your part. cheers
Hi Alister, and thanks for this wonderful guide !
I would like to ask you a question. You say : “The idea is that this metadata can be used by the grading or editing software to adjust the clips exposure level in the edit or grading application so that it looks correctly exposed “.
Is Adobe Premiere CC2014 one of this few editing software that can correct automatically exposure according to metadata, when filming in low EI ?
If it is, is there anything that needs to be done to make it work ?
At the moment there is no software that adjusts the exposure of the S-Log footage. It’s not just a case of applying different gain, you need to use a different LUT for different exposure ranges and Sony have only released a single set of LUT’s for the native ISO.
Hi Alister,
I just bought you a cocktail – I took delivery of my brand spanking new FS7 yesterday, and your website is the first place I went to to help me get a grip on its features and shooting in cine-ei.
Many thanks for all the work you do and that you so generously share.
Regards
Gil
Thanks for the cocktail.
Thank you for the thorough breakdown. I really appreciate your hard work and diligence. As a recent FS7 owner, this is incredibly helpful.
Thank you for taking the time and energy to share your knowledge with those of us new to S-log. It’s certainly worth the price of a Singapore beer!
I finally understand what it’s all about, thanks to you. Cheers.
Hello Alister: First off, thank you for generously sharing your extensive expertise on the shooting on SLog and using LUTs. This whole process is very new to me and as I gain knowledge I hope to be able to implement (or at least understand) much of what you have shared. I recently purchased the Sony PXW-FS7. Coming from a long career as a commercial sports still-photographer, I have moved into video in the past year using the Canon 5D and shooting ProRes via the Atomos Ninja2. I’ve gotten good results and for most of my work I am able to get quality results for my projects, but the inability to shoot higher frame rates for slomo was frustrating. Hence the FS7 purchase.
I am thrilled with the results of my early testing, but since I don’t have a background in color grading and working with LUTs, I am a bit stuck. I am getting good quality results in Custom mode (mostly using the Standard #5 STD5 709 gamma), but of course I realize I am not utilizing the camera to it’s potential by not shooting in Cine El mode.
I have become proficient doing my simple grading in Adobe Premiere Pro and have used Speedgrade some, but usually just use the tools within Premiere. I have used your LUTs in Premiere but can’t get my clips shot in Cine El/SLog-3 to look nearly as good (accurate, pleasing, not noisy, etc..) as the clips I have shot using the above setting in Custom mode. I realize that I have much to learn (or at least turn what I shoot over to someone more qualified), but for now I am just wondering if I am being foolish to shoot in the Custom mode. It seems the files are still better than what was I am used to coming out of the Canon/Ninja, but I hate to be not maximizing the quality of what I’m shooting. My concern is that if I shoot in Cine/SLog right now, I won’t get my clips to look as good as they would if I had just shot in Custom.
Are any of the gamma setting in Custom mode better than other to preserve more dynamic range/color information?
Also, I can’t seem to get your LUTs to load into the FS7 even though I have read your comments expensively assisting others with the same issue.
Any advise is greatly appreciated. I have purchased you a Singapore Beer to offset my guilt for creating such a long post.
Cheers!
Tim
I don’t understand the problems some people have loading LUT’s. It appears to work fine for most people, but some people do struggle.
I would suggest learning how to use DaVinci Resolve. The Lite version is free and comes with an excellent tutorial that will get you going quite quickly. The results you will get from resolve will almost certainly be far superior to those from Premier.
Just updating that I sorted out the issue loading the LUTs. I had assumed the final name would be “FXW-FS7” instead of “PMWF55_F5” (makes sense doesn’t it?). Now that I made the change, was able to load the LUT and have some nice tests to experiment with. Already, well ahead of where I was a few hours ago, so don’t worry about a reply at this point. Now your article will make much more sense. Thanks!
Hi Alister, thanks for your time in putting this together. I rented an FS7 for a job a couple of weeks ago and reading through your guide before shooting was really helpful. As a stills photographer using film in a former life, this way of working is really exciting!
I bought you coffee…You did a really nice job on this. I felt you should be rewarded.
Thanks.
Hi Alister, thanks for the article I’m using it to set up my FS7.
One frustrating point: Under monitor LUT, when turning either SDI2 and/or viewfinder MLUT On I loose my waveform in the both right; even though the video signal monitor in Display on/off is selected to Waveform.
Any idea why I’m loosing it?
It’s a limitation of the image processing in the FS7. It can only add the Waveform when ALL outputs are set the same way as there is only one image processor handling this task.
i am having troubles loading my LUTs as well….followed the file structure instructions (incl the change to FS7) but still only get a list of “No File”….any ideas anyone?
either way, thanks for putting this together, i bought you a latte…
Last folder must be PMWF55_F5 not anything else.
ok….i got it….bizarre but i got it…it seems like the folder structure has to be as described in the article:
PRIVATE:SONY:PRO:CAMERA:PMWF55_F5
if the last folder is replaced with FXW_FS7 it won’t work….
Yes, that last folder needs to be PMWF55_F5.
Thanks for the guide, a Singapore beer is yours :)) !
One thing I don’t understand. Why is it not recommended to bake in the S-log lut internally so I don’t have to change my exposure later in the grading session ?
I mean if I put the s-log LUT in the viewfinder and in on the cards (internal) and shoot at 1000ISO instead of 2000 won’t it be the same as what the colorist does to the image in post…darkening it one stop ?
Doesn’t the Alexa actually do this internally as well ? I know it changes the latitude above and below middle gray similarly to what the CINE EI mode does but it always shows you the result, in the viewfinder and in the grading software ? Or does it just use metadata better ?
Many Thanks.
If you use the S-Log LUT and then use 1000EI you will see a reduction in your dynamic range. This is exactly the same as using negative gain in a conventional camera. If you subtract 1 stop (6db) from your full signal range anything near black will be reduced in level by 6db and will be lost. There will be no change to the maximum highlight range as this is limited by the sensor so no gain in highlight range. The net result is a loss of around one stop in the shadow range and no change to the high range, so the total dynamic range is reduced by one stop to 13 instead of 14. As you are opening the iris by an additional stop this will help compensate for the loss of shadow recording range, but as you are one stop more open you may encounter highlight clipping earlier.
This isn’t in many cases a big deal, but you are sacrificing one stop of dynamic range for little benefit as you are still going to need to grade you material. Why not just record at the native ISO and gain that extra stop of shadow information?
In raw the F5/F55/FS7 and Alexa are all exactly the same as the raw metadata includes the exposure shift which gets included during the raw de-bayer. As a result it always looks “correctly” exposed. But with Log you need a different LUT for each exposure range so you will see these differences in post.
Thanks very much for the guide,
I have one issue, I can’t turn on the Viewfinder LUT it’s greyed out and says cannot proceed when I try to select it… I don’t have the HDMI set to 4k or anything.
Any suggestions?
Cheers
Brian
Check the setting of the Output Settings, Edge Crop/Letter Box option. It must be Letter Box.
So I don’t have an external monitor. I’m stuck with the annoying fact that I don’t have a waveform monitor when viewing the 709 LUT.
So this is my setup
SLOG3
using 708 (800%) LUT
EI (iso?) at 1000
Trying to expose with 90% reflectance white card with zebra’s
What should I set my zebra’s to expose properly?
With the ei at 2000 and my zebras set to 90% and popping up with they are 90% makes sense, but when I us 1000ei shouldn’t the zebras be different? less? more?
Thanks in advance!
Zebras should be exactly the same for all EI’s. You are using EI to deliberately offset the exposure of the recordings. If you changed the zebras to compensate for the different EI you would not have the exposure offset in the recording.
Gotcha. Makes sense.
Shot this way yesterday and I am loving the results!
Thanks for the extremely helpful info, Alister!
Alister. When filming in SLog 3 cine and rating the camera at 2000EI should we over expose by a stop or two?
Thanks for this great guide Alister. A latté on it’s way to you 🙂
Hello Alister, first time my post didn’t work, so I just try it again.
What you think about rating your Camera at 3000iso, using Rec709 Lut on your viewfinder and telling your post to process the footage like material shot with 1000iso.
It’s my run ‘n gun approach to get cleaner footage out of my FS7.
All the best,
Tobias Corts
Just rate the camera at 1000ISO, if you rate it at 3000 ISO it will be noisy.
This was a god-send in helping me understand how LUTs really work, and how to use them effectively with my new fs7. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain it!
Alister, quick question.
I can only seem to be able to enable LUTs on the SDI-2 feed when the output setings are set to “Edge Crop”. When “Letterbox” is enabled the SDI-2 feed immediately reverts back the slog. Thoughts?
Yes, this is a limitation of the cameras hardware. It can’t do the LUT processing and Letterbox function (which is an image zoom) at the same time. Edge crop is easy, just don’t use the outer pixels.
Hi!
As fresh owner of fs7, good explanation from reputable and well known cameraman is very welcome. Am longtime follower of Yor blog, from my ex1 times, as always ..well written and composed article..Thnx!
Regards
Raul Rooma
Hello Alistair,
this article has been incredibly insightful.
If I can enquire about the post production process of ingesting FS7 rushes in to my grading application and applying LUT.
I have understood rightly or wrongly that if the footage were shot in Cine El mode with SLOG3 and MLUT 709 (800) option selected. I would be required to apply the same LUT in post to correctly expose the log footage, thus ‘reverting’ it back to what was viewed on the monitor during filming.
I cannot however seem to locate an LUT file with the 709 (800) name. Would Sony’s SGamut3CineSLog3_To_Cine+709 LUT work? Or would one of your own like the Slog3709-to-709-800-NORMAL.cube be appropriate?
Please bear in my mind that my grading software would be Apple Color, bundled with FCP7. It does not have to my knowledge the LUT 709 (800) as pre-set.
I apologise if this has already been raised before.
Kind Regards,
Bryn
Thank you Alister
very helpful. Wish I had this info before the shoot we had last week went a little tits up!!
Thanks, Alister. Awesome article, super helpful and way better than anything from anywhere else on the internet.
Do I get to chose if you have a beer or a coffee? I’d kind of suggest a beer, but I’ll understand if you go for coffee if it’s pre-lunch.
Thanks Alister.
As a beginner in the video world moving over from hobby 5D MK III photography to the FS7 this has been so helpful for me.
You ever come to Thailand, please allow me to buy you more beers.
Thanks again.
Hopefully I will be in Thailand some time in the next 6 to 8 months.
Thank you so much for this tutorial, what a great guidance for beginners!
One question, is it possible to use the zebra or waveform
Just by looking at the image without any cards? Like you did on a dslr where you protected the important parts of the image from zebras?
You can but one of the important things with this kind of workflow is consistency. If you use the 709(800) LUT then you should be OK without a white or grey card. If your exposure varies form shot to shot you will create a lot of extra work in post production.
Great work Alister many thanks and enjoy the beer. I’ll study the full article in depth later this week but I have a shoot tomorrow with the FS7 and have a quick question if that’s ok. Right at the top of the article in ‘simplified’ you mention choosing an MLUTs you like in the viewfinder or monitor. As I understand it this process is as follows – (1) shoot in cine EI mode (2) select an MLUT that looks good in the viewfinder or monitor. (3) Turn that MLUT off and shoot in s-log. (4) In post drop that LUT back on to the s-log footage. Is that correct? BUT how does one drop the LUT directly on to the footage in the timeline? Thanks for your time.
You don’t need to turn the LUT off while you are shooting if you only have the LUT selected for the VF. Adding the LUT in post depends on the software you are using. FCPX requires a plugin, Premiere it is done with the Lumetri color panel, Resolve it’s done by right clicking on a clip while in the color room.
Thank you Alister for this complete guide and also for the presentation in Amsterdam for the FS5!
I told you with a cocktail thank you and was surprised that no thanks came from you.
Sorry, try to spend my spare time answering questions and writing new articles.
Thanks for a great article.
Had about an hour to get from scratch to full paces on FS7 recently and it saved me a lot of time!
HI Alister,
Thanks for the wonderful guide that you have provided. I just have one question for you. How do I download the 709 MLUT that I used in camera so I can apply it in my color correction? I shot on CineEI Mode with the 709 MLUT and I want to apply that LUT to the footage in post, per your instruction.
Thanks
Use the search box at the top right and search for LUTs.
Great article. I’m confused over the exposure levels. You always describe getting white or gray levels at certain percentages, but when does your iris or shutter come into play? Does it not matter what your iris is at? I guess I don’t understand what is meant by gain vs. general exposure settings (iris, shutter). And I get further confused by the sensor always recording the same thing regardless of what your VF image looks like. Thanks for you help.
With a video camera you can measure the exposure with a waveform display or zebras. Using these measurements you can then set the shutter and iris for the correct exposure which will vary depending on the brightness of the scene.
In Cine EI the cameras recording sensitivity is fixed, even when you change the EI which only changes the LUT sensitivity.
Thank you for this great article as o have used this many times over the past year for reference. Quick questions what would be proper skin tones when viewing in LC709typeA? Ire. Thanks so much
About 55%
Hello and thank you.
Please, if I bake in the LC709typeA, would the correct exposure for skin tones still be 55% ?
Also, what would be the maximum acceptable exposure for those skin tones ?
55% would be correct but likely to be noisy as this is at the base ISO. Expose brighter and you will loose contrast.
Thanks Alistair. I bought your guide a few months back. I’ll buy a fs5 version if you write one too. 😉
Can you tell me please, does rating the ISO at 800-1000, produce the same result as exposing a 90% white card at 75% (cineEI). This is Doug Jensen’s recommendation.
On a FS7 if you expose S-log3 at 67% that is about 1000 EI. 75% is about 600 EI. My recommendation for 90% white is 70%.
Excellent thanks. I assume 70% would be the same also for the fs5?
Dear Alister
I have a quesiton ,what if i exposing in SLOG3 with LUT 709(800),and set the zerbas in 90%.but the FS7 actually recoding the slog3 flie wiht out the lut,is that meaning my scene is over exposure? cuz in cording to you sadi that slog3 correct exposure is like 61% zebras,THX
It’s all, like, in the guide like. Coz u ave different exposures levels for the LUT’s as dey av diff gamma to de log like.
thx, but i wanna know that will lost my highlight data of slog3 file in 709lut ’s correct exposure of highlight ?for example ,my lut already ETTR n the data are really close to the right,,is that mean the slog already over to the right(over exposure)? and thx for your patience for my poor english
Don’t use LUT’s and then expose to the right. Use the LUT to expose correctly, then use the correct EI to get the appropriate exposure range. Also with log you need to learn not to worry about your highlights. It is the shadows you need to worry about. Expose the mid range correctly and highlights and shadows will fall into place correctly too. Highlights that may look over exposed when shooting will normally grade nicely (assuming you have your workflow properly setup) if the mid range has been correctly exposed.
My advice is to use 709(800) LUT, set the EI to 800 EI and expose so the LUT’d image looks right, not over, not under. Don’t worry about the highlights.
thx alot :p 1 more question ,i hear that the 709(800)lut can not display all dynamic range ,it just display 8stops(hilight and shadow data will be cut)
and the LOOKS will show all dynamic range. its that ture? what if that ture,why we should expose in LUT?
THX
Thank you very much for this excellent article Alister!
Oh okay.. good to know. I will be shooting an independent feature film next week with this camera and working with the Odyssey 7Q+ and shooting RAW. I did a test and it appears that I must really avoid anything over EI 640 (with the REC 709 (800) LUT in my viewfinder). There was virtually no noisy shadows when I looked at it with a professional colorist. The image quality was very nice. When I brought the EI to 1000 and 2000, the noise in the shadows became noticeable. Another note: my colorist and I also found that if working WITHOUT an Odyssey 7Q and recording internally with the XVAC codec, S-Log 3 / S Gamut, 4K… there was always objectionable noise (with blue artifacts) in shadow areas even when exposed properly. Even though it was acceptable for viewing on a television monitor, I had to keep in mind that this image would be viewed on a large screen at festivals and screenings. So while I love this camera, I have to shoot RAW in order to avoid potential issues in the shadows. Thank you for the info Alister.
Thank you for this info, Alister! Very helpful. Question: You mentioned that working with the S-log 3/ S Gamut3.cine is easier to grade than JUST working with S-log3 (even though the S-log3 gives you the most color range of the sensor). Is that assuming one is grading this as a non-professional colorist? Is that ALSO true of working in a color suite with a professional colorist with all the tools available to him? I’d prefer to shoot my footage in a way that gets the MOST out of my sensor but don’t want it to be difficult for my colorist. Thank you.
There is not normally anything to be gained by using S-Gamut3 over S-Gamut3.cine with an FS7 as the sensor cannot see any colours beyond S-Gamut3.cine so using S-Gamut3 will not give you any extra color range.
Oh okay.. good to know. I will be shooting an independent feature film next week with this camera and working with the Odyssey 7Q+ and shooting RAW. I did a test and it appears that I must really avoid anything over EI 640 (with the REC 709 (800) LUT in my viewfinder). There was virtually no noisy shadows when I looked at it with a professional colorist. The image quality was very nice. When I brought the EI to 1000 and 2000, the noise in the shadows became noticeable. Another note: my colorist and I also found that if working WITHOUT an Odyssey 7Q and recording internally with the XVAC codec, S-Log 3 / S Gamut, 4K… there was always objectionable noise (with blue artifacts) in shadow areas even when exposed properly. Even though it was acceptable for viewing on a television monitor, I had to keep in mind that this image would be viewed on a large screen at festivals and screenings. So while I love this camera, I have to shoot RAW in order to avoid potential issues in the shadows. Thank you for the info Alister.
Superb Stuff. Have a latte on me
Thanks.
Alister, would love your help in setting up my Sony FS5 for shooting Slog3 in 1080p HD. At the moment I only have the camera and no access to external monitors for things like false color, waveforms, etc. So I am sticking to zebras. What settings should I put in my Zebra 1 and Zebra 2 slot? Would appreciate the help! Thank you
and if I am using the Gamma Assist function, is there a different zebra setting? Or same regardless if I am using Gamma Assist or straight Log image?
The zebras on the FS5 measure the actual recording level, then the gamma assist is applied over the top. I tend not to use gamma assist as it forces you to expose at the base level which is too low in my opinion. My recommendation is to set Zebra 1 to 70% and expose a white card or flat white object such as a T shirt at 70%.
Hi Alister,
Thank you very much for a great guide on Cine EI settings.
Question: Sony FS7 Firmware update 3.0 features Support for Noise Suppression setting in Cine EI mode. If I use your guidelines described on this website (800EI or 1000EI), would you also recommend using the Noise Suppression feature and if so, which setting?
Best regards,
Antti
No, I do not recommend the use of in camera noise reduction if you intend to grade the footage. Noise reduction works to some degree by averaging out values across areas of the image. This can result in banding in the image that only becomes noticeable after grading. It’s better to expose brightly to get a better signal to noise ratio and then if needed apply noise correction in post where you have much more control and can see the final result.
How do you determine the correct color temperature setting on an FS7 when shooting S-log 3
5500K for daylight, 3200K for tungsten and 4300 for anything in between.
Hello and thank you for this amazing article. It’s been a HUGE help!
Just a quick question about the 709(800) LUT.
If I am rating the FS7 at 800 ISO, thus exposing my s-log image about a stop and a third brighter to get a cleaner signal to noise ratio, do I still set my skin tones to 65-70% when viewing that LUT.
According to Alister, it is recommended to expose S-Log 3 on the FS7 about a stop or two brighter to get the most of out of it. But, seeing as I am already doing that by rating down my camera to 800 ISO and then compensating by opening up the aperture, do I still expose skin tones at 65%? Wouldn’t that be overexposing my image 2x more than what I want to overexpose it by? Or do I still expose the 800 LUT regardless of how I rate the camera?
Thank you!
If you are using CineEI and 800EI then expose the 709(800) LUT as you would normally. The use of 800EI will give you log that is recorded 1.5 stops over base.
what is the best setting to match like pmw 200 or pmw 300 ?
They will never be that close a match as they are very different cameras. But use the same Hypergamma on both will be similar.
Amazing guide, Alister. Thank you so much. Do you prefer coffee or beer?! I have had some great results baking LC709a into Slog and also recording Slog and working from the Look Profile in post. Where should caucasian skin tone be sitting with LC709a? I’ve had best results at about 60 but varying with conditions. Any thoughts welcome.
LC-709 white is around 73% and skin tones around 55%.
Hi Alister
I’m currently shooting in CineEI mode, normally at 1000 or 800EI and with the viewfinder LUT on, meaning the Zebras read the Rec709 values as appose to the Logs, which is great, but I can’t get my waveforms to do the same thing.
Obviously I don’t want to bake the LUT into the image, so I keep SDI1 & internal recording OFF. If on, it will reference the Waveform in conjunction with the LUT, but if SDI 2 is on, the Waveform only ever references the S-Log image underneath, but because i’m exposing with Rec 709 zebras values, it would be good to also expose with the waveform Rec709 values at the same time. (without the lut being baked in). Is this possible?
Additional to this, i’m not using the SDI2 port on the Camera, i’m using the RAW Out from the extension back with the Odyssey 7Q+
Best,
Ian
In the latest firmware version you can select whether the WFM looks at the LUT level or the INT REC level in the Viewfinder settings.
As second hand FS7s are now commonplace and ‘cheap as chips’ here in AU, I have one coming to compliment my FS5 so I’m intrigued with the possibility of shooting CINE EI but actually recording the 709 (800) MLUT (or my custom 3D LUT) to achieve the benefit of the camera’s full D/R yet create a fast edit workflow.
Any thoughts on this?
If you record the LUT you won’t be maximising the dynamic range as this will be limited to the DR of the LUT and in essence the workflow will be little different to any other Rec-709 workflow.
Thanks for clearing that up. I’ll mostly record 709 but I will choose to grade in Resolve for any CINE EI that I capture. Alister, if shooting 4K I frame internally, is it possible to simultaneously monitor in 10bit 422 HD out of SDI #1 or 2 on the FS7?